diff --git a/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/IPublishedValueFallback.cs b/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/IPublishedValueFallback.cs
index f30a53c8b6..4b6e7cb10a 100644
--- a/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/IPublishedValueFallback.cs
+++ b/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/IPublishedValueFallback.cs
@@ -94,12 +94,17 @@
         /// <param name="fallback">A fallback strategy.</param>
         /// <param name="defaultValue">An optional default value.</param>
         /// <param name="value">The fallback value.</param>
+        /// <param name="noValueProperty">The property that does not have a value.</param>
         /// <returns>A value indicating whether a fallback value could be provided.</returns>
         /// <remarks>
         /// <para>This method is called whenever getting the property value for the specified alias, culture and
         /// segment, either returned no property at all, or a property with HasValue(culture, segment) being false.</para>
+        /// <para>In an <see cref="IPublishedContent"/>, because walking up the tree is possible, the content itself may not even
+        /// have a property with the specified alias, but such a property may exist up in the tree. The <paramref name="noValueProperty"/>
+        /// parameter is used to return a property with no value. That can then be used to invoke a converter and get the
+        /// converter's interpretation of "no value".</para>
         /// </remarks>
-        bool TryGetValue(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, object defaultValue, out object value);
+        bool TryGetValue(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, object defaultValue, out object value, out IPublishedProperty noValueProperty);
 
         /// <summary>
         /// Tries to get a fallback value for a published content property.
@@ -117,6 +122,6 @@
         /// <para>This method is called whenever getting the property value for the specified alias, culture and
         /// segment, either returned no property at all, or a property with HasValue(culture, segment) being false.</para>
         /// </remarks>
-        bool TryGetValue<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, T defaultValue, out T value);
+        bool TryGetValue<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, T defaultValue, out T value, out IPublishedProperty noValueProperty);
     }
 }
diff --git a/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/NoopPublishedValueFallback.cs b/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/NoopPublishedValueFallback.cs
index cd7b063d44..245bbd1d39 100644
--- a/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/NoopPublishedValueFallback.cs
+++ b/src/Umbraco.Core/Models/PublishedContent/NoopPublishedValueFallback.cs
@@ -37,16 +37,18 @@
         }
 
         /// <inheritdoc />
-        public bool TryGetValue(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, object defaultValue, out object value)
+        public bool TryGetValue(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, object defaultValue, out object value, out IPublishedProperty noValueProperty)
         {
             value = default;
+            noValueProperty = default;
             return false;
         }
 
         /// <inheritdoc />
-        public bool TryGetValue<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, T defaultValue, out T value)
+        public bool TryGetValue<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, T defaultValue, out T value, out IPublishedProperty noValueProperty)
         {
             value = default;
+            noValueProperty = default;
             return false;
         }
     }
diff --git a/src/Umbraco.Web/Models/PublishedContent/PublishedValueFallback.cs b/src/Umbraco.Web/Models/PublishedContent/PublishedValueFallback.cs
index 691744d6df..2890591ef1 100644
--- a/src/Umbraco.Web/Models/PublishedContent/PublishedValueFallback.cs
+++ b/src/Umbraco.Web/Models/PublishedContent/PublishedValueFallback.cs
@@ -45,7 +45,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                         value = defaultValue;
                         return true;
                     case Fallback.Language:
-                        if (TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback(property, culture, segment, defaultValue, out value))
+                        if (TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback(property, culture, segment, out value))
                             return true;
                         break;
                     default:
@@ -53,7 +53,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                 }
             }
 
-            value = defaultValue;
+            value = default;
             return false;
         }
 
@@ -72,6 +72,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                 value = default;
                 return false;
             }
+
             _variationContextAccessor.ContextualizeVariation(propertyType.Variations, ref culture, ref segment);
 
             foreach (var f in fallback)
@@ -84,7 +85,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                         value = defaultValue;
                         return true;
                     case Fallback.Language:
-                        if (TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback(content, alias, culture, segment, defaultValue, out value))
+                        if (TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback(content, alias, culture, segment, out value))
                             return true;
                         break;
                     default:
@@ -92,33 +93,32 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                 }
             }
 
-            value = defaultValue;
+            value = default;
             return false;
         }
 
         /// <inheritdoc />
-        public bool TryGetValue(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, object defaultValue, out object value)
+        public bool TryGetValue(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, object defaultValue, out object value, out IPublishedProperty noValueProperty)
         {
-            // is that ok?
-            return TryGetValue<object>(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, defaultValue, out value);
+            return TryGetValue<object>(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, defaultValue, out value, out noValueProperty);
         }
 
         /// <inheritdoc />
-        public virtual bool TryGetValue<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, T defaultValue, out T value)
+        public virtual bool TryGetValue<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, Fallback fallback, T defaultValue, out T value, out IPublishedProperty noValueProperty)
         {
+            noValueProperty = default;
+
             var propertyType = content.ContentType.GetPropertyType(alias);
-            if (propertyType == null)
+            if (propertyType != null)
             {
-                value = default;
-                return false;
+                _variationContextAccessor.ContextualizeVariation(propertyType.Variations, ref culture, ref segment);
+                noValueProperty = content.GetProperty(alias);
             }
-            _variationContextAccessor.ContextualizeVariation(propertyType.Variations, ref culture, ref segment);
 
             // note: we don't support "recurse & language" which would walk up the tree,
             // looking at languages at each level - should someone need it... they'll have
             // to implement it.
 
-
             foreach (var f in fallback)
             {
                 switch (f)
@@ -129,34 +129,21 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                         value = defaultValue;
                         return true;
                     case Fallback.Language:
-                        if (TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback(content, alias, culture, segment, defaultValue, out value))
+                        if (propertyType == null)
+                            continue;
+                        if (TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback(content, alias, culture, segment, out value))
                             return true;
                         break;
                     case Fallback.Ancestors:
-                        IPublishedProperty noValueProperty;
-                        if (TryGetValueWithRecursiveFallback(content, alias, culture, segment, defaultValue, out value,
-                            out noValueProperty))
-                        {
+                        if (TryGetValueWithAncestorsFallback(content, alias, culture, segment, out value, ref noValueProperty))
                             return true;
-                        }
-
-                        // if we found a property, even though with no value, return that property value
-                        // because the converter may want to handle the missing value. ie if defaultValue is default,
-                        // either specified or by default, the converter may want to substitute something else.
-                        if (noValueProperty != null)
-                        {
-                            value = noValueProperty.Value<T>(culture, segment, fallback.Contains(Fallback.DefaultValue) ? Fallback.ToDefaultValue : Fallback.To(), defaultValue: defaultValue);
-                            return true;
-                        }
                         break;
                     default:
                         throw NotSupportedFallbackMethod(f, "content");
                 }
             }
 
-
-
-            value = defaultValue;
+            value = default;
             return false;
         }
 
@@ -166,10 +153,11 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
         }
 
         // tries to get a value, recursing the tree
-        private bool TryGetValueWithRecursiveFallback<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, T defaultValue, out T value, out IPublishedProperty noValueProperty)
+        // because we recurse, content may not even have the a property with the specified alias (but only some ancestor)
+        // in case no value was found, noValueProperty contains the first property that was found (which does not have a value)
+        private bool TryGetValueWithAncestorsFallback<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, out T value, ref IPublishedProperty noValueProperty)
         {
-            IPublishedProperty property = null; // if we are here, content's property has no value
-            noValueProperty = null;
+            IPublishedProperty property; // if we are here, content's property has no value
             do
             {
                 content = content.Parent;
@@ -184,7 +172,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                 }
 
                 property = content?.GetProperty(alias);
-                if (property != null)
+                if (property != null && noValueProperty != null)
                 {
                     noValueProperty = property;
                 }
@@ -198,15 +186,14 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
                 return true;
             }
 
-
-            value = defaultValue;
+            value = default;
             return false;
         }
 
         // tries to get a value, falling back onto other languages
-        private bool TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback<T>(IPublishedProperty property, string culture, string segment, T defaultValue, out T value)
+        private bool TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback<T>(IPublishedProperty property, string culture, string segment, out T value)
         {
-            value = defaultValue;
+            value = default;
 
             if (culture.IsNullOrWhiteSpace()) return false;
 
@@ -238,9 +225,9 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
         }
 
         // tries to get a value, falling back onto other languages
-        private bool TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback<T>(IPublishedElement content, string alias, string culture, string segment, T defaultValue, out T value)
+        private bool TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback<T>(IPublishedElement content, string alias, string culture, string segment, out T value)
         {
-            value = defaultValue;
+            value = default;
 
             if (culture.IsNullOrWhiteSpace()) return false;
 
@@ -272,15 +259,15 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web.Models.PublishedContent
         }
 
         // tries to get a value, falling back onto other languages
-        private bool TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, T defaultValue, out T value)
+        private bool TryGetValueWithLanguageFallback<T>(IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture, string segment, out T value)
         {
-            value = defaultValue;
+            value = default;
 
             if (culture.IsNullOrWhiteSpace()) return false;
 
             var visited = new HashSet<int>();
 
-            // fixme
+            // TODO
             // _localizationService.GetXxx() is expensive, it deep clones objects
             // we want _localizationService.GetReadOnlyXxx() returning IReadOnlyLanguage which cannot be saved back = no need to clone
 
diff --git a/src/Umbraco.Web/PublishedContentExtensions.cs b/src/Umbraco.Web/PublishedContentExtensions.cs
index c7fbd51389..f38df4288f 100644
--- a/src/Umbraco.Web/PublishedContentExtensions.cs
+++ b/src/Umbraco.Web/PublishedContentExtensions.cs
@@ -4,9 +4,7 @@ using System.Data;
 using System.Linq;
 using System.Web;
 using Examine;
-using Examine.Search;
 using Umbraco.Core;
-using Umbraco.Core.Configuration;
 using Umbraco.Core.Models.PublishedContent;
 using Umbraco.Core.Models;
 using Umbraco.Core.Services;
@@ -15,8 +13,6 @@ using Umbraco.Web.Composing;
 
 namespace Umbraco.Web
 {
-    using Examine = global::Examine;
-
     /// <summary>
     /// Provides extension methods for <c>IPublishedContent</c>.
     /// </summary>
@@ -88,24 +84,21 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web
 
         public static bool IsAllowedTemplate(this IPublishedContent content, int templateId)
         {
-            if (Current.Configs.Settings().WebRouting.DisableAlternativeTemplates == true)
+            if (Current.Configs.Settings().WebRouting.DisableAlternativeTemplates)
                 return content.TemplateId == templateId;
 
-            if (content.TemplateId != templateId && Current.Configs.Settings().WebRouting.ValidateAlternativeTemplates == true)
-            {
-                // fixme - perfs? nothing cached here
-                var publishedContentContentType = Current.Services.ContentTypeService.Get(content.ContentType.Id);
-                if (publishedContentContentType == null)
-                    throw new NullReferenceException("No content type returned for published content (contentType='" + content.ContentType.Id + "')");
+            if (content.TemplateId == templateId || !Current.Configs.Settings().WebRouting.ValidateAlternativeTemplates)
+                return true;
 
-                return publishedContentContentType.IsAllowedTemplate(templateId);
-            }
+            var publishedContentContentType = Current.Services.ContentTypeService.Get(content.ContentType.Id);
+            if (publishedContentContentType == null)
+                throw new NullReferenceException("No content type returned for published content (contentType='" + content.ContentType.Id + "')");
+
+            return publishedContentContentType.IsAllowedTemplate(templateId);
 
-            return true;
         }
         public static bool IsAllowedTemplate(this IPublishedContent content, string templateAlias)
         {
-            // fixme - perfs? nothing cached here
             var template = Current.Services.FileService.GetTemplate(templateAlias);
             return template != null && content.IsAllowedTemplate(template.Id);
         }
@@ -168,12 +161,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web
                 return true;
 
             // else let fallback try to get a value
-            // fixme - really?
-            if (PublishedValueFallback.TryGetValue(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, null, out _))
-                return true;
-
-            // else... no
-            return false;
+            return PublishedValueFallback.TryGetValue(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, null, out _, out _);
         }
 
         /// <summary>
@@ -195,15 +183,12 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web
                 return property.GetValue(culture, segment);
 
             // else let fallback try to get a value
-            if (PublishedValueFallback.TryGetValue(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, defaultValue, out var value))
+            if (PublishedValueFallback.TryGetValue(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, defaultValue, out var value, out property))
                 return value;
 
-            if (property == null)
-                return null;
-
             // else... if we have a property, at least let the converter return its own
             // vision of 'no value' (could be an empty enumerable)
-            return property.GetValue(culture, segment);
+            return property?.GetValue(culture, segment);
         }
 
         /// <summary>
@@ -226,7 +211,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web
                 return property.Value<T>(culture, segment);
 
             // else let fallback try to get a value
-            if (PublishedValueFallback.TryGetValue(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, defaultValue, out var value))
+            if (PublishedValueFallback.TryGetValue(content, alias, culture, segment, fallback, defaultValue, out var value, out property))
                 return value;
 
             // else... if we have a property, at least let the converter return its own
@@ -234,29 +219,6 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web
             return property == null ? default : property.Value<T>(culture, segment);
         }
 
-        // fixme - .Value() refactoring - in progress
-        public static IHtmlString Value<T>(this IPublishedContent content, string aliases, Func<T, string> format, string alt = "", int fallback = 0)
-        {
-            var aliasesA = aliases.Split(',');
-            if (aliasesA.Length == 0)
-                return new HtmlString(string.Empty);
-
-            throw new NotImplementedException("WorkInProgress");
-
-            var property = content.GetProperty(aliasesA[0]);
-
-            //var property = aliases.Split(',')
-            //    .Where(x => string.IsNullOrWhiteSpace(x) == false)
-            //    .Select(x => content.GetProperty(x.Trim(), recurse))
-            //    .FirstOrDefault(x => x != null);
-
-            //if (format == null) format = x => x.ToString();
-
-            //return property != null
-            //    ? new HtmlString(format(property.Value<T>()))
-            //    : new HtmlString(alt);
-        }
-
         #endregion
 
         #region Variations
@@ -992,9 +954,8 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web
         /// </remarks>
         public static IEnumerable<IPublishedContent> Children(this IPublishedContent content, string culture = null)
         {
-            if (content == null) throw new ArgumentNullException(nameof(content));
+            if (content == null) throw new ArgumentNullException(nameof(content)); // fixme wtf is this?
 
-//
             return content.Children.Where(x =>
             {
                 if (!x.ContentType.VariesByCulture()) return true; // invariant = always ok
@@ -1056,10 +1017,7 @@ namespace Umbraco.Web
         /// <summary>
         /// Gets the first child of the content, of a given content type.
         /// </summary>
-        /// <param name="content">The content.</param>
-        /// <param name="alias">The content type alias.</param>
-        /// <returns>The first child of content, of the given content type.</returns>
-        public static IPublishedContent FirstChild(this IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture = null)
+        public static IPublishedContent FirstChild(this IPublishedContent content, string alias, string culture = null) // fixme oops
         {
             return content.Children(culture,alias).FirstOrDefault();
         }